Law & Sovereignty

[Michelle]

I’m actually really torn on which way WE are going to choose to go- the 501(a).. Church seems like an added layer of legitimacy with which to interact with Babylon and be “Tax Exempt” without fuss.

My only reservation is the possible “contract” which an application might be consenting to.

It IS a one-time application; churches do not file information returns or anything else with the IRS… forever. They also never get audited (without an act from the commissioner). So in my basic cost/benefit analysis, the risks of filing form 1023 seems to be pretty low.
Would love any thoughts on those who are operating a Church, Ministry or other private ecclesiastic entity. Thanks!

Discussion

[hugh]

Research 508c1a.

[Michelle]

Hi Hugh,
Have you gone this route? Churches of any IRS classification do not have any requirement to file anything with the IRS. Whether or not they have a determination letter (unless of course they contract to file).

I am wondering how one with any IRS classification (or none) would handle property taxes. This is the main reason I’m seriously considering getting an IRS determination letter.

We have begun an Equity process with the tax assessor. It might just be my own nervousness that wants the backup of the determination letter.

[hugh]

I’m in the process of setting this up. Ah OK, this is more of a property tax issue. I would talk to Marcia Ann or maybe these guys can consult: https://youtu.be/gqAnD_f6wsI?si=tRjQhsq_eFTTZmOW&t=550

[Ari]

🙂

[Michelle]

Hi Ari!
I am not sure why that is. You are not blocked on my end, but I did notice that the messages said I am not allowed to send messages to you. I don’t know why 🤷‍♀️

[Ari]

🙂

[Alfa]

For some reason only your account has these glitches. I hopefully just fixed it so you can message again!

[Ari]

lol no worries. it worked. thank you

[Anne]

From my comprehension and study, you do not want to “register” as a 508c1a…..other PMA’s have done this and it has caused issues down the road. It’s been awhile since I have reviewed this since we did our PMA a few years ago now…. but this is how I see it and maybe the easiest way to explain…. you are filling out THEIR paperwork to get THEIR STATUS…. this puts you in their jurisdiction because they are then they grant you a “508c1a CHURCH” status….so if you want to play in their system, yes you can, but there can be implications. So you thus are creating an ALL CAPS entity to operate in their system. You can do everything you need to without doing this…. it’s all a choice in how you want to operate and what makes you comfortable and if you can stand on your square when necessary.

• This reply was modified 5 months, 2 weeks ago by  Anne.

[Michelle]

Hello Anne,

thank you for your thoughts!
I don’t have any status or classification for my private ministry. That would not be determined until we send in the forms requesting a tax exempt determination letter. We are not a 508 nor a PMA.
My question is, what implications are there? Because churches are not audited. Churches are also exempt by definition from filing any returns with the IRS. To my perception, there seems to be little to no downside to request a determination letter. Other than the monetary cost of the application.

I’m not sure what you mean about registration? So a private church exists without permission from anyone, and merely receives a number from the IRS specifically to do banking. What do you mean that it can do everything without this?

What I need to do specifically (or would like to do) is to hand the county proof of tax exemption. This seems to me like the easiest way to do that.

[Anne]

So when you request a determination to be a church to get an EIN… you then just created the ALL CAPS entity, it is an option and then you can be tax exempt in such a way…. but you would also have to “conform” to the laws of a Church… it is not necessarily private anymore….It’s their definition of Church and whatever laws they create or change would apply.

• This reply was modified 5 months, 2 weeks ago by  Anne.

[Anne]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9GBSe5vYkU

[Anne]

I know this is about PMA’s but it is just going over the law for 508c1a which a PMA cannot be a 508c1a it is very thorough to know what you are accepting as a 508c1a

• This reply was modified 5 months, 2 weeks ago by  Anne.

[Michelle]

I found the video very unclear and misleading, especially after going through many hours of research on private foreign trusts, ecclesiastic foreign ministries, etc. And she is selling stuff. So not particularly reliable.

I suppose the crux is that I am not at all afraid of the IRS. They are not a governmental agency. They do not have any authority to register my entity as anything nor even to deny a status if my entity claims it’s status as a foreign private church. I have even come to regard the IRS as very handy in allowing privacy and sanctifying our status when needed. The IRS is also an honorable agency that cognizes equity and will not interfere once Equity is applied. So if I proffer my application and information, or in other words, enter into a private contract with the IRS wherein I agree to submit information in return for their seal on a piece of paper, and that seems like a good deal to me with very little to no downside. I could be wrong, but I need to know specifically why?

So I guess my question would be, more specifically, are there any real contractual obligations to applying for a determination letter? It seems even cheaper and easier than getting a Land Patent! lol. Just saying. WHY NOT?

[Anne]

My land patent was free because I did it myself…

[Michelle]

My time is not free.

[Michelle]

Okay,

Well I am not requesting to be a church nor to register.

The EIN is not registration and does not set a status for my entity… what does set the status is custom and conduct. So the conduct is what will determine the status of the entity, ultimately. And this doesn’t effect whether it can be public or private.

I suppose you could argue that when I proffer the application for an IRS determination letter (which is simply a verification that my entity is tax-exempt), that that information must conform with the IRS definitions of a tax-exempt organization. That is true, but that is information that I’m willing to put up in order to get a letter which will stop the county in their tracks. It does not necessarily obligate the entity to conform to IRS definitions.
And again we’re neither 508 nor a PMA.

Do you have a way to secure a tax-exempt status for property taxes?

[Anne]

You can remove yourself from property taxes with a land patent and equity.

Doing the 508c1a makes it the all caps and gives and EIN. Thus it may be “private” but not the same as truly private. You are still banking on the public side. And as a 508c1a the definition of church still applies. I am not saying it is a completely bad idea, I am just saying that depending on what you want to do you are falling into the legal side not lawful. Which also means someone can then take you to the legal side of court. But if one knows how to stand and move it to lawful it doesn’t really matter. It is all choices. The IRS is not part of the government and you can private contract, but …. put it this way it is like for like… you are not contracting with a man…. so it is a “entity” contracting with a “entity/corporation”…so you are acting under the laws of commerce or trust. So you need to know trust law or commerce.

[Anne]

As long as you comprehend what the form states in the instructions and manual on what it “assumes”… which I believe the video is getting at… if you are obtaining the tax-exempt status using the 508c1a, the code she went through in the video on how the IRS defines when the form can be used. How to meet the criteria to be tax-exempt. Which a lot of people are using those forms without doing the appropriate research and I have heard of a few people that had problems.

No… I have not gone through any legal processes to get a tax exempt status. What I have done is a lawful process and at the point where I can either create my own court (a man’s court – the magistrate still presides but with my court rules) or take it to equity….I am trying one more mailing before taking it to the clerk of court in personam…. I have also had the treasurer and assessor retire recently, so that could extend the process because I now I may need to address those two new women. I have already started the process with the treasurer after receiving the winter statement. Pretty much they knew what was coming, but they still can be held accountable just no longer responsible to make the changes which may mean I need to go the equity path. There are many ways to skin a cat. I already have all the FOIA’s from township, county, state (legislature & attorney general) stating they have no law, no authority, no contract, etc to obligate a property tax. I have done a lot over the last three years educating them hoping I could get them to correct it that way.

[Anne]

I also have recorded agreement with the township and county that they have no constitutional authority to levy a direct tax (property tax). So I have tons of evidence, just need to really take the next step.

[Anne]

There is another way with the IRS where they don’t classify you as a church, by doing an SS-4 for a W-8BEN purpose only and foreign express trust (in other words without the United States), then you can get a tax exempt from them as well without the 508c1a church label….If it were me this is how I would do it, because because it is for a trust and then the legal side which puts you in trust law…..which since it is a trust you can keep them from administering and stop them from any court, unless they want to take on duties of the trustee and all responsibility, which they will not. Trust law is the safest way to work in Commerce. As well, you can convey the property into the trust and it takes away the property tax.

• This reply was modified 5 months, 2 weeks ago by  Anne.
• This reply was modified 5 months, 2 weeks ago by  Anne.

[Michelle]

Right,

So if you already have the foreign ecclesiastic trust which received an EIN for W-8BEN purposes only…

How did you receive your tax-exception letter?

[Anne]

There are a two or three more steps maybe, pretty easy. It’s been over a year since I have looked at it, though our Michigan group just reviewed it again I believe – I was not able to make most of December. You are from Michigan? There is a group in Brighton that studies all this…They meet every Tuesday, Thursday (work day what people need help on), and then Saturday is Bible Study.

[Anne]

There was some people who did not previously do it or not with the group when previously going through it, so they went through it for them I believe in December as I kept up with notes in telegram. Looking back it was in 2022 when we originally went through this, so it’s been quite some time.

[Anne]

So 508c1a comes from the United States Code… not the IRS, which I would think you are aware – but my question to you then – do you want to be under the Unites States jurisdiction? If you are listing codes from the United States to get a status then how do you defend that you are not under their jurisdiction? Can you pick and choose which codes apply to you for your benefit?…. I choose to operate without the any codes, statutes as a man/woman….

https://law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26/508

law.cornell.edu

26 U.S. Code § 508 - Special rules with respect to section 501(c)(3) organizations

26 U.S. Code § 508 - Special rules with respect to section 501(c)(3) organizations

[Anne]

There are ways to open bank accounts without the EIN and other ways to correct property taxes without doing a 508c1a…. i haven’t done it but am learning about this and know people (second hand) that private bank

[Anne]

Here is the list of what an IRS Church must have….the first one is distinct legal existence, thus you must comply to legal statutes, ordinances, and codes – unlike a lawful ministry

https://www.irs.gov/charities-non-profits/churches-religious-organizations/definition-of-church

irs.gov

Definition of church | Internal Revenue Service

Discussion of the difference between churches and religious orgnaizations.

[Michelle]

A distinct legal existence does not obligate it’s jurisdiction. A distinct legal existence is the claim about the agreement (or contract) that formed the entity. Ie, “who, when, where, & why”. Without the United States is a distinct legal existence and not subject to codes or statutes.

• This reply was modified 5 months, 2 weeks ago by  Michelle.

[Anne]

yes and no… because it is commerce or trust law if it is a distinct legal existence… It’s not the same as staying on the private man to man.

[Michelle]

I get that,

If you’re a private man (or woman), you’re already in Trust law/ Admiralty Law/ International Trade Law, since you’re not “in the United States”. You’re a foreigner to the United States.

IF one were to interface with the United States in order to say, buy anything at all online or have a bank account, or God forbid try to live in a house, then it’s a moot point that we’re not man-to-man. Of course we’re not.

The problem is that as a man living on the land, the United States corp WILL come after you because the presumption is that you owe taxes. Whether you are private entity or a man doesn’t particularly matter. It is simply not possible to mind one’s own business and only do business with other men and women; the United States won’t allow it.

So the basic question is still; HOW are you choosing to interface with Babylon aka the United States? HOW are you choosing to disprove the presumption that you owe taxes? And, WHY NOT use the IRS to bolster your entity’s legitimacy in “their” eyes?

If you’re doing Equity, you already know that denying a partnership with your fiction is banned. Your fiction IS in the Admiralty Law/ International Trade Law system and IS subject to those codes, statutes, ordinances, etc. Equity can only step in when you bring the substance as the man or woman, but it does not negate the fictitious entity.

I apologize for being repetitive, but you seem to be responding with -forgive me- enthusiastic and wordy responses without comprehending what I’m seeking.

[Anne]

And they may “come after you”, but if you comprehend a few pieces of what a man is and that you can pull it right out of that jurisdiction anytime and address the man, they can’t do anything. There are ways to accomplish the same things without equity. Equity is still their system, but there is also something called God’s law – and trespass – and they do not want to be in trespass. And you can create your own court such as the “Anne Putnam Court” verses the “Michigan Circuit Court”, you can flip courts if you comprehend how. Which is exactly part of the problem because the whole equity is still playing their system. God made it so we address man to man, and not be part of the world. I don’t want to play in an artificial world so I bring it back to what is real. In my opinion. Sovereign’s way resonates with me, which is equitable, but not their way of equity. Which is why I choose not to use the IRS. It’s about creating the new, because in the end they still control their equity.

[Anne]

We will just have to agree to disagree. I agree with you on equity. But if you create an entity through the IRS using the 508c1a you just put that entity in the jurisdiction of the United States. What I am saying, is that you can do it multiple ways, if you do it with the IRS and you don’t need to use USC codes like the 508c1a and you can still get your tax exempt determination. In equity you don’t use their codes and statutes, when you do you use their codes you then are choosing to participate in their jurisdiction. Using the 508c1a code for the entity is like marking yourself as a US Citizen. Just as we have all screwed up not knowing who we are and doing things wrong with our “fiction” and participated. I personally don’t want the tax exempt letter, but also know how to get one without using their 508c1a code if I wanted to, I have friends who have done this with much success. The way perhaps we are meant to if we don’t want to create war and stay in equity. Men and women do not use codes and statutes to get the results they want in equity…. that’s all I am saying.

• This reply was modified 5 months, 2 weeks ago by  Anne.

[Anne]

I think a course from Sovereign’s way would help clear up on the difference of a man and when a man takes a title, and what I am trying to explain. The United States can only go after the title (entity – parent, 508c1a, veteran, private man (not the same as man – an adjective diminishes man, and my friend proved this in court), any title), and at any time you can change it to man to man if you know how. The man is never subject to codes statutes and ordinances unless he consents or takes a title. If you are well versed as a man, you can change any court room. I know a number of men the United States will not touch and are on the do not detain list for being men and knowing how to stand as a man not an entity. The United States does everything they can to keep them out of court. I know a man who the police arrested because he didn’t have a conceal carry and he had his loaded gun on the seat, and when they put him in jail he ended up getting his gun and bullets back before leaving because the judge wanted him out of there. He is now on a do not detain list. Just need to know how to act in honor as a man. You can do it with taxes too and the United States will leave you alone. How when you put on the entity hat to play in trust law/admiralty/international trade law as you would say – then you take that title to do those things, but that is never who YOU are, so they really can’t take anything from the MAN, only the TITLE…. so convey it out of the title (their jurisdiction) or put it in trust or use equity with the entity or use a man process by way of correspondences and notices to stop any harm, wrong, and trespass.

Sorry for the long messages, I am just trying to explain and it doesn’t seem like what I am trying to say is being comprehended clearly. And it may be because most people do not comprehend how to just do things righteously as just a man with no titles in our current system…..which is what is taught in the Sovereigns Way course….

• This reply was modified 5 months, 2 weeks ago by  Anne.
• This reply was modified 5 months, 2 weeks ago by  Anne.
• This reply was modified 5 months, 2 weeks ago by  Anne.
• This reply was modified 5 months, 2 weeks ago by  Anne.

[Mark]

Hi Anne,

I appreciate your post and the time you took to write it. You’re fortunate to know someone who has experience with this and more than one. Imagine a country where most of those around us know how assert themselves in the law against authority. I am taking the course you mention. I haven’t got to the module on holding your own court but have seen the outline and it’s inspiring. Some of the material is mind blowing. Thanks for posting here.

[Anne]

You are welcome! I am glad you are enjoying it. Out of everything I have looked into and learned, I really feel like this resonates the most.

[Author]

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